Clojure hate and Language Wars

Discussion of other Lisp dialects (Arc, Clojure, AutoLisp, XLISP, etc.)

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby TheGZeus » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:44 pm

tayssir wrote:You know, it's the whole Go vs. chess thing Rich Hickey mentioned once, where it's about market share rather than "beating the other guy."

As a Go player, I must read this. Got a link?
I have a phobia of searching with the word 'Hickey' in the string
TheGZeus
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:46 am

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby tayssir » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:30 am

It was in a video here. (At 43:00 into the video.)

Not to disappoint, but it was just casually mentioned in one sentence, when offering arguments that Clojure doesn't have to compete against other languages like Scala; there doesn't have to be a winner. "Clojure doesn't have to 'win' to win. See, I'm a Go player, I'm not a chess player; I don't have to kill the other guy. I just need... marketshare."

(It'd be funny to take the metaphor too seriously and wonder if Clojure people are making subtle little moves, pretending just to be doing their own thing, culminating in the suffocation of the opponent...)

Incidentally, I can't tell if I miss CL's loop or not. It was my old standby. (That and ~{~} in FORMAT. Yes, I crossed to the darkside long ago.) But I find that with lazy sequences and so on, I can come up with elegant replacements, if I just think a little. I'm only unhappy when I use the loop..recur form, because relative to CL's loop, it spreads the looping machinery all over the place. I think some sort of simple cl-loop macro should take care of that pain point.
tayssir
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby TheGZeus » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:16 am

tayssir wrote:It was in a video here. (At 43:00 into the video.)

Not to disappoint, but it was just casually mentioned in one sentence, when offering arguments that Clojure doesn't have to compete against other languages like Scala; there doesn't have to be a winner. "Clojure doesn't have to 'win' to win. See, I'm a Go player, I'm not a chess player; I don't have to kill the other guy. I just need... marketshare."

(It'd be funny to take the metaphor too seriously and wonder if Clojure people are making subtle little moves, pretending just to be doing their own thing, culminating in the suffocation of the opponent...)

Incidentally, I can't tell if I miss CL's loop or not. It was my old standby. (That and ~{~} in FORMAT. Yes, I crossed to the darkside long ago.) But I find that with lazy sequences and so on, I can come up with elegant replacements, if I just think a little. I'm only unhappy when I use the loop..recur form, because relative to CL's loop, it spreads the looping machinery all over the place. I think some sort of simple cl-loop macro should take care of that pain point.

I once got randomly challenged by a pro.
6 moves and I quit.
Not sure if there's a language analogy that fits, there.
TheGZeus
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:46 am

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby Wodin » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:04 pm

tayssir wrote:I'm only unhappy when I use the loop..recur form, because relative to CL's loop, it spreads the looping machinery all over the place. I think some sort of simple cl-loop macro should take care of that pain point.

One (possibly?) good thing about loop...recur is that you can't accidentally use non-tail recursion, because the compiler refuses to allow recur when not used in tail position.
Wodin
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:16 am

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby Harleqin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:59 am

TheGZeus wrote:I once got randomly challenged by a pro.
6 moves and I quit.


Huh? Why?
"Just throw more hardware at it" is the root of all evil.
Svante
Harleqin
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:18 am
Location: Bonn, Germany

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby TheGZeus » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:08 am

Harleqin wrote:
TheGZeus wrote:I once got randomly challenged by a pro.
6 moves and I quit.


Huh? Why?

Completely cut off, no chance.
It was 2 years ago, its possible I just noticed I'd lost at 6 moves, and played longer, or it may have been 12 moves...
TheGZeus
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:46 am

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby Harleqin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:04 am

TheGZeus wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
TheGZeus wrote:I once got randomly challenged by a pro.
6 moves and I quit.


Huh? Why?

Completely cut off, no chance.
It was 2 years ago, its possible I just noticed I'd lost at 6 moves, and played longer, or it may have been 12 moves...


Sorry, I just find it hard to imagine a resignworthy position after 12 moves, unless you were playing on a small board (9x9).
"Just throw more hardware at it" is the root of all evil.
Svante
Harleqin
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:18 am
Location: Bonn, Germany

Re: Clojure hate and Language Wars

Postby TheGZeus » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:14 pm

Harleqin wrote:
TheGZeus wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Huh? Why?

Completely cut off, no chance.
It was 2 years ago, its possible I just noticed I'd lost at 6 moves, and played longer, or it may have been 12 moves...


Sorry, I just find it hard to imagine a resignworthy position after 12 moves, unless you were playing on a small board (9x9).

Yeah, 2 years. No longer so sure...
Basically I suck, their moves were all really good, and very fast(duh, pro) and I either knew I was done for, or I just gave up...

There was another time I kept playing longer than a high-ranked player wanted to, and they just let me win by timing out...
Felt way worse than losing...
TheGZeus
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:46 am

Previous

Return to Other Dialects

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests